Plenty of UNPAID internships to go around at PCOM. Paid jobs? Does Minimum wage count?

Plenty of UNPAID internships to go around at PCOM. Paid jobs? Does Minimum wage count?

A friend of mine recently received an e-mail blast from ‘career’ services at PCOM offering paid massage positions in NJ.  I’m blogging about this because paid positions from PCOM are almost unheard of.  My friend responded and received a curt response from Cynthia Neipris that the position is only open to current PCOM students.  Is that why it was sent to the alumni distribution list?  I guess even though she graduated PCOM, has an NJ massage license and is eminently qualified doesn’t count for much when PCOM has to parse out jobs because career services sucks.  

That being said, I’d like to bring your attention to the NYT article that recently came out regarding the pushback employers are receiving when they depend on unpaid internships.  People who peruse the PCOM NY job boards probably have to scroll for a few hours before finding PAID (minimum wage) jobs and then scroll until their computer equipment gives out to find anything remotely above minimum wage.  Why would students pay $200K for a degree that only nets them unpaid internships and minimum wage jobs? 

That brings me to my next topic:  Gluttony.  I think there are 2 kinds of gluttony in this world.  Honest gluttony (where you treat yourself well from the fruits of your labor) and repugnant gluttony.  Repugnant gluttony is what I feel PCOM NY engages in because they scam students into believing that they’ll earn a decent living when they graduate while charging them an arm and a leg.  Employees at PCOM (I really hold the career services department to be the main culprits) are really fat (metaphorically, if not physically…but sometimes both) from repugnant gluttony.  

New updates from the trenches — more reasons to avoid attending acupuncture school

I just read the updated POCA articles below (thanks Shauna!).  Can we say u-g-l-y?  People who invested a  fortune in an education with the goal of helping others are having a hard time getting by.

I define a good standard of living as being able to live a life relatively free of financial stress,  feeling prepared should misfortunes fall and being able to look after oneself.

The majority of acupuncturists don’t have this standard unless they work at exploiting other people (think acupuncture schools, the way I’m thinking about Pacific College of Oriental Medicine).  How many school administrators are laughing their way to the bank as earnest students and graduates mortgage their futures to an overpriced education with zero job prospects?  I say zero job prospects because $35K per year, which seems to be the average annual salary of an acupuncturist in 2012 (according to the posts below) DOES NOT AFFORD ANYONE A GOOD STANDARD OF LIVING (the reason for working in the first place).

Let’s say it again:  AVOID ACUPUNCTURE SCHOOL.

https://www.pocacoop.com/james-restons-appendix/post/guest-blog-dollars-and-sense-information-for-prospective-acupuncture-and-or

https://www.pocacoop.com/james-restons-appendix/post/dont-go-to-acupuncture-school

https://www.pocacoop.com/james-restons-appendix/post/replicability-and-the-economics-of-practice

Student Loan Debt and a Lifetime of Poverty

Can you imagine being 24 years old and owing $70K?  That’s what Chelsea Grove owes for her aborted education at Bowling Green State University.  Please read the NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/business/student-loans-weighing-down-a-generation-with-heavy-debt.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all) and see how people need to live in order to pay their student loan debts.  Now imagine doing it at 28…or 34…or 45…and then imagine living that way for 10 years or longer.  Then imagine that once you’re free from student debt, you’re pretty much starting from scratch…at age 38…or 44…or 55…when your peers have passed this point and are so much ahead of you.  Is this a reality that’s appealing to you?

As unfortunate as this scenario is, it’s a very likely future for Pacific College of Oriental Medicine (PCOM) students.  If you’re set on pursuing this dead end future, ask the hard questions:  what job postings are available for acupuncturists?  how many postings for paid internships are there?  What’s the backup plan if I can’t make a decent salary as an acupuncturist?  How will I fund my retirement?  Read the POCA acupuncture community forums and see what they say about jobs, salaries and the profession (https://www.pocacoop.com/).

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/business/student-loans-weighing-down-a-generation-with-heavy-debt.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, Acupuncture and Job Prospects

I’m glad you’re a successful student and that you feel PCOM’s Career Services/Cynthia Neipris is doing right by you. In all sincerity, I hope that my grim opinion on the income potential for PCOM acupuncture students is wrong and that every single PCOM acupuncture graduate earns a living wage.

Acupuncture is a fascinating field of study and the decision to walk away from the degree and my spent tuition money wasn’t easy. I took a hard look around and assessed the ROI of a potential L.Ac. I spent my clinic shifts talking to the advanced students and didn’t hear of any success stories. I looked at the people who obtained the degree and where they were in life. It wasn’t a very compelling outlook.

Every single one of these people were passionate about acupuncture and did well in school. I tried to find success stories when I searched using the terms ‘acupuncture, salary, pay, income’ and I found a whole community of acupuncturists who agree that making a living is ridiculously hard. Do the search yourself (https://www.pocacoop.com/ is a good place to start, as is http://www.theturningpointacupuncture.com/SoYouWantToBeAPunk.html) – I have absolutely NOTHING to gain from this blog.

As to your suggestions on how I can help Career Services, what would Cynthia do with any extra money she receives when she thinks she’s doing a great job thus far?  I spent 2 years at PCOM and recall that the only e-mails she sent out were for overpriced CEU credits, calls for UNPAID volunteer work, UNPAID internships, UNPAID externships (look up the difference between internships and externships), and ‘exciting opportunities’ to work as an UNPAID assistant at an acupuncturist’s office.

I have the following suggestions for improving career services:

1. Publicly post the number of PCOM graduates (broken down by campus) working full time as acupuncturists. Include the mean, median and mode salary and all info relevant for statistical integrity (total # of graduates, total respondents, definition of acupuncture field, etc).

2. Allow students and prospective students to see the alumni job boards – they should know what they’re getting themselves into.

3. Like the students who are on the hook for student loans, Cynthia should have some skin in the game. A significant portion of her income should be based on the percentage of graduates earning $55K or higher per year (this bar is set LOW for NYC — and no cheating, only income from acupuncture work counts).

4. Have the SBA or a management consulting firm come in and review the career services program. I graduated from a good school and I know that job boards should consist of real employment positions – not unpaid ‘opportunities’.

5. Students pay a LOT in tuition money and they deserve an innovative career services department. 

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine NY Issues

Cynthia Neipris, the director of Career Services at Pacific College of Oriental Medicine’s (PCOM) NY campus recently responded to my posting on the livelihood of acupuncturists. I considered taking the conversation offline and addressing the hurt she felt over the posting and make it clear that I am not into causing pain or distress. I re-read my posting to see if I was unfair, cruel or hateful and then I read her post again to try and see things from Cynthia’s point of view. Here are my thoughts on this:

1. My existence would be truly blissful if everything I read about myself were positive. However, this isn’t a realistic scenario. I need my friends and family to be there and tell me all the negatives so I could be an even BETTER person. I need my bosses and co-workers to tell me what they see so I could do an…

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Response to PCOM’s Career Services Department

Cynthia Neipris, the director of Career Services at Pacific College of Oriental Medicine’s (PCOM) NY campus recently responded to my posting on the livelihood of acupuncturists. I considered taking the conversation offline and addressing the hurt she felt over the posting and make it clear that I am not into causing pain or distress. I re-read my posting to see if I was unfair, cruel or hateful and then I read her post again to try and see things from Cynthia’s point of view. Here are my thoughts on this:

1. My existence would be truly blissful if everything I read about myself were positive. However, this isn’t a realistic scenario. I need my friends and family to be there and tell me all the negatives so I could be an even BETTER person. I need my bosses and co-workers to tell me what they see so I could do an even BETTER job. Cynthia, you should find INSPIRATION (not censure) from my posting and CHALLENGE yourself to THINK “what MORE should I be doing to address the issues this person is writing about?” 
2. Cynthia, I’ve seen you in school in the late evenings and also on some weekends. You walk around with a tight expression on your face and, while I recall exchanging niceties with you, you never asked me about my career ambitions, my thoughts on post PCOM plans, invited/informed me of upcoming events nor invited me to sit with you. You’re the face of the career services department and should be more of an ambassador/representative. Why don’t you talk more to the students you meet? You should invite people/inspire them to come see you!
3. On that note, Cynthia, over the past decade that you’ve spent at PCOM, would you say that, between the PCOM alums and the current student body for all of the programs (massage, acupuncture, herbs), you are now (theoretically) working for 10 times the number of people you had originally? Has your department’s budget (or your salary) increased by a factor of 10? You are the only name that I associate with Career Services and that’s a shame. I think that Career Services should at least have 3-4 people staffing it. How realistic is it for *ONE* person adequately support the Career Services responsibilities for a school the size of PCOM? If you really think you’re doing a FABULOUS job right now, how much MORE do you think you could accomplish if your department staff and budget were increased? I think you should consider this – and if it’s out of your hands, let the student council know that you’d like them to spend some of their budget helping you out.
4. I’d like to make it clear that other than the small pleasantries at the elevator banks, I don’t know you. My blog is not a personal attack on you. It’s a space I created to share my opinions on how PCOM can be improved and my DIRE WARNING to potential students — DON’T GO TO PACIFIC COLLEGE OF ORIENTAL MEDICINE UNLESS YOU HAVE MONEY TO BURN.
5. Lastly, on the job front, it may help to allow current students to see the job postings alums have access to online so they can see what they’re getting themselves into.

OH MY — $250K for an acupuncture degree from PCOM?!

OH MY GOODNESS.  Check out this link to an article written in October 2011 and focus on the paragraph below:

Currently, Dr. Tsao works as a part-time professor at the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, which is the largest school of Traditional Chinese Medicine in the nation. Over 70 percent of students are American, paying  tuition of  about $250,000  in a degree  granting program that takes three and a half years to complete. http://themidtowngazette.com/2011/10/acupuncture-in-new-york/

I can’t believe that over 70% of PCOM students have $2,500 to spare, much less $250,000 to spend on an education with dubious earnings potential.

PCOM student council edicts — read, heed and obey (…or else)

On November 12, 2011, PCOM’s student council posted the following:

Pcom Ny

FROM STUDENT COUNCIL: READ. HEED.
Recently, Students at Pcom Ny have hurled expletives & names at Staff members, kicked/overturned office chairs, & violently ripped papers from the hands of Reception/Records Assistants. It is understandable that people get emotional, however, SELF CONTROL AND RESTRAINT ARE REQUIRED AT ALL TIMES. The College clearly outlines policies for appropri…ate behavior and will enforce these policies – which entail IMMEDIATE ACTIONS from Admin, such as: warnings, SUSPENSIONS and/or EXPULSION.

While I believe that it is important to maintain civility and show respect to one another, I laughed at the examples they provided and the preaching/lecturing/warning to paying customers.  How much indignity should students/customers put up with before they’ve had enough?  I’ve heard the more callous response to this question ‘if they don’t like it, they should go.  PCOM is a business.’  Fair enough, but good businesses issue refunds and have customer service departments.  Students can’t exactly get a refund after going through the program, after taking x number of courses and investing the time and money — all in good faith that they’d be treated fairly and receive the bill of goods they were sold.  When PCOM customers are unhappy, the only resolution they have is to leave and continue to pay off the student loans/write off the tuition already spent or suck it up and take it.  I can understand how students become fed up and reach a breaking point. It’s ironic that PCOM bills itself as a ‘healing’ environment/school yet administration can’t reach peaceful resolutions with unhappy students.

PCOM:  If you believe strongly in the school’s personnel, the program and the earning potential for graduates then offer a money back guarantee.  Be open, genuine, caring and honest in all of your dealings.

Student council: It’s better to inspire good behavior rather than trying to legislate it. Please work on behalf of those you’re supposed to represent and resolve the problems that are driving people to those aggressive measures. Clinical counseling classes should have covered this.

The Finale: The PCOM American Cancer Society Fundraiser

Welcome back!

Recap:  On Sunday, July 24, 2011, the PCOM student council held a talent show to benefit the American Cancer Society.  Prior to this, I expressed my opinion as to how, based on the way things were run at the last show, the 7/24/11 show could be improved.  I was criticized by Jason Morris for questioning the way things were run.

So, a week has gone by now and there has been radio silence as to how much was raised for the American Cancer Society.  Why is this?

• The Chernuchin Theater, capable of seating 140, sat about 20-25 people that evening.  The theater rental was $600, paid for by student council budget funds.  At $25-$30 per ticket…well, you can do the math.  Keep in mind that about HALF of the audience consisted of performers waiting to go onstage .
• There was a heat wave going on (there was a high of 91 and a low of 78 on Sunday) and there was no air conditioning.  At $25 per ticket, shouldn’t the basics be covered?

• The show lasted over 3 hours…with no A/C.

Personal musing:  The goal of raising money for cancer is, of and in itself, noble.  What’s not noble is if the reason behind it is to feed an ego or to falsely raise the stature of PCOM by diverting student council money.  Perhaps in the future, rather than using $600 for a theater rental, the money could be spent funding snacks and small goody treat bags for all students prior to midterms, finals and comps.

So how much do acupuncturists earn?

Full disclaimer:  I am not an acupuncturist.  Rather, I am a drop out of Pacific College of Oriental Medicine’s NY campus acupuncture program.  I can only comment on what I’ve observed in the 2 years that I’ve studied.

So, you’re thinking about signing up for the Acupuncture program at Pacific College.  How much will you make?  You’ve sat through the orientations and when the question is brought up, vague reassurances are issued — mainly that acupuncture is a growing field and that the salaries are hard to track because there aren’t enough numbers. I’ve found the following blogs on the dollars and ‘sense’ of acupuncture to be very helpful — it’s written by a licensed acupuncturist, Shauna McCuaig:

https://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/guest-blog-dollars-and-sense-information-prospective-acupuncture-and-oriental-medicine-students

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/dont-go-acupuncture-school

I’m a cynical New Yorker and Shauna McCuaig’s blog sounds pretty realistic to me.  What’s even more realistic is the lack of paid opportunities available through the Career Services department of PCOM NY (Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, NY campus).

The career services department is run by Cynthia Neipris.  I’ve heard conflicting opinions on her.  Some people suspect Cynthia sits on her duff all day and has little interest in posting more jobs or helping students find positions.  Others had positive things to say, claiming that she’s a very nice woman who works very hard and is helpful.

I say…SHOW ME THE MONEY (I’ve always wanted to say that).  Check out the job postings available at PCOM, ask the students to forward you e-mails Cynthia has sent out about open positions, internships, and opportunities.  Look at the salaries being offered (low to non-existent when mentioned) from the positions that are available through PCOM’s career services.  Either Cynthia really isn’t doing her job (because honestly, there are VERY few acupuncture, massage and herbalist positions posted) or Cynthia is out there hustling for all she’s worth every single day and coming away empty handed because there’s not much available.  Which is it?  Either answer is pretty damning for prospective students who are spending hard earned money for a degree with questionable job security.

One rebuttal people may make to this posting is that acupuncture is an entrepreneurial endeavor and that most graduates/students go into private practice.  To that I say:  this is NYC, where the cost of living is amongst the highest in the nation.  To make it here with the minimum (an unlimited metrocard, cell phone, food, utilities and a rented room), you need to earn at least $35K/year.  Do you have the confidence that you’ll have enough clients, charging $60-$80/session (that’s about 600 sessions/year) to make it in the first few years?

• Cheap room share:  $800/month in the boros (there are cheaper rooms ranging from $500-$800 — I am putting up the higher figure b/c this would pretty much guarantee a legal bedroom w/a window and some degree of privacy).
• Cell phone bill:  $50/month (average)
• Metrocard:  $104
• Utilities:  $50 for electric, $20 for gas, and $40 for internet = $90
• Food:  Let’s say you eat cheap and get by on $10/day (this means $.99 menu or strictly cooking and packing lunch daily) = $300
• Sundries:  Essentials for hygiene (soap, toothpaste, shampoo, detergent), laundry, etc = $50/month
• Acupuncture malpractice insurance:  $50/month (averages $150/quarter but could be higher)
• Total= roughly $1450/month just to get by (you must see at least one client/day on a 5 day work week)

Do you want to have some extras in your life?

• Pay off student loans?  Estimate a monthly payment of $200 to service it w/the hopes of paying something towards the principle.
• A social life?  Let’s say you spend $20 each weekend/month seeing friends — ~$80/month.
• Desire to go on vacation once a year?  $800 (that’s a round trip plane ticket, if you’re lucky, plus a little extra for food and transportation) = $70/month in savings.
• Is health insurance (roughly $400-$600/month) important to you?  Let’s go with the low end (or even HealthyNY, where the cheapest option is about $250/month) which is about $400
• Total= roughly $750

You will need to earn $2200/month if you want to live a life with some enjoyment/security.  How did I estimate the $35K annual salary when 12 months x 2200=$26400?  Well, $35K after taxes is about $29,000.  Everyone needs a little extra cushion so I put in $2,600 per year towards a cheap office share (where your practice will be run), needles (cheap at about $5/box but adds up), sheets (again, laundry costs money), and office supplies.  Of course, if you can live off family, you have no worries and no major pressures.

Katie Tintz’s response when I followed up on Jason Morris’s suggestion

So, I followed up on Jason Morris and Julie Cho’s suggestion that I contact Katie Tintz if I were curious about the student council budget.  They assured me that it was an open book and would be happy to shed light on matters.  Ready for the response?

Katie Tintz:

show details Jun 19

I’m sorry but excuse me? What could you possibly want with our budget? I don’t even have access to it unless I’m on campus and go to see the people in charge. Our budget should be of no concern to anyone. We share with everyone what we spend the student council money on and you can see it – the break room renovation, luncheons, comps review sessions, the benefit show, karaoke nights and bringing in people to do lectures, etc. And from what I know you are no longer a student, so Im not sure of your interest. If this is a major concern for you I welcome questions and I urge you to contact Gina if you think there are shady business practices going on

Katie Tintz

I also do not appreciate the things that were written on Facebook yesterday degrading the work and intention behind the show in November. I find it abhorrable that you would question our motives, especially in a place as public as Facebook.
– Show quoted text –

See below for 3 examples of major schools who have NO PROBLEMS publishing their budgets:

Click to access USG-budget-2011-20122.pdf

Click to access 2010-2011%20budget.pdf

http://facu.columbia.edu/