A doctoral program in acupuncture?!

Yours truly recently read an article on PCOM’s website, titled:  Pacific College’s Doctoral Program gets Glowing Reviews in First Semester (link:  https://www.pacificcollege.edu/acupuncture-massage-news/articles/591-pacific-colleges-doctoral-program-gets-glowing-reviews-in-first-semester.html).  A doctoral program in acupuncture? ? ?  I’ve never even heard of such a thing in China, where acupuncture originated.  This must be something incredible, amazing and wonderful all rolled into one!  I’m going to put on my thinking cap and go over this with you.  Maybe it’s worth $32,000 of additional [worthless] debt.

Ok, so the article starts off with praise on how excited students are about the program and how skilled and versatile they are.  Then they interview Greg Sperber, MSTOM PCOM ’97, who is one of the first students in the program.

Greg who?

Greg Sperber, you know, the former president of California State Oriental Medicine Association (CSOMA).

Why should I know him?

Oh, there was an article about his lame response to very serious allegations of financial improprieties way back when in Acupuncture Today:  http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/CSOMA/

What makes you say his response was lame?

Check out the letter he wrote:  http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/CSOMA/CSOMA_ATQuestions_060623.pdf

Getting back to the topic at hand…

Ok, ok.  So, Greg Sperber says that the MSTOM doctoral holders will have more clout with the FDA.

HAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Maybe Robin Tiberi, PCOM ’95, is a more credible interviewee.   According to her, she feels like she can communicate with anyone about Chinese medicine.

Robin needs to pay $32K for a doctorate degree on top of her Masters before she feels confident enough to speak about Chinese medicine?  This is a really sad woman.

Jack Miller, the President of Pacific College is also interviewed.

Well, honestly, what’s he going to say other than rub his hands together that PCOM will be earning MORE money from these suckers and charlatans?  It would have been more credible to interview people from the FDA to confirm/deny Greg Sperber’s hyperbolic statements.

After reading the article, there’s not a lot of critical thinking that goes into introducing the doctoral program.  What did these people really learn for $32K?  How much did it improve their income?  Do patients really lean towards doctoral degree holders vs. regular acupuncturists?

I liked this co…

I liked this commentator’s view from the trenches so much that I’m reposting as an public service message.  Keep in mind that acupuncture schools will pretty much accept ANYONE with money — even if they clearly can’t cut it intellectually.  I find this to be absolutely ‘ABHORRABLE’*!

Posted by goodmedicineforbadschools on July 2, 2012 at 5:59 pmedit

Thank you for the blog post. I think it is worth mentioning the behavior of those people in the acupuncture business making the largest incomes. These slicksters are engaged in businesses that have very little to do with the work of practicing medicine.

When the slicksters nominally practice acupuncture, they aim to hold onto wealthy clients who come in for relaxation, the quest to look younger, and their egomaniacal belief that they should be giving birth to children at an age when AARP is inviting them to join. They also sell their own lines of supplements, and work the seminar circuit for the sake of fleecing acupuncture students, other acupuncture practitioners, and the general public.

A very clear picture emerges when one spends enough time spent observing this profession. The person who has made a killing through acupuncture spends very little time treating disease and a great deal of time lifting wallets.

Real medicine is real work, western or eastern. The acupuncture schools, the (non-community) practice of acupuncture, and all the associated slimebags charging a fee to the student who has suckered themselves into this hell, are definitely not preparing people for work. The environment at acupuncture schools tells all. These businesses are demonstrating the parasitism, lack of professionalism, lack of regulation, and generally unhealthy environment that is the acupuncture business.

Denial of reality among students and acupuncturists is intense – and self-serving for the schools. Many students seem unable to accept that the schools are private businesses making money off of them. Basic reality is that acupuncture schools give their scam victim students, most of whom are unprepared for work in medicine, an abysmal education and a license to enter into a profession full of sleazy Sinophile con-artists. And then we all get to pay off the loans we took out to buy this bridge.

*’abhorrable’ is a made up word a PCOM acupuncture student used because she didn’t have the vocabulary to properly express herself.  For more details, see my post titled Katie Tintz’s response when I followed up on Jason Morris’s suggestion.

Student Loan Debt and a Lifetime of Poverty

Can you imagine being 24 years old and owing $70K?  That’s what Chelsea Grove owes for her aborted education at Bowling Green State University.  Please read the NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/business/student-loans-weighing-down-a-generation-with-heavy-debt.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all) and see how people need to live in order to pay their student loan debts.  Now imagine doing it at 28…or 34…or 45…and then imagine living that way for 10 years or longer.  Then imagine that once you’re free from student debt, you’re pretty much starting from scratch…at age 38…or 44…or 55…when your peers have passed this point and are so much ahead of you.  Is this a reality that’s appealing to you?

As unfortunate as this scenario is, it’s a very likely future for Pacific College of Oriental Medicine (PCOM) students.  If you’re set on pursuing this dead end future, ask the hard questions:  what job postings are available for acupuncturists?  how many postings for paid internships are there?  What’s the backup plan if I can’t make a decent salary as an acupuncturist?  How will I fund my retirement?  Read the POCA acupuncture community forums and see what they say about jobs, salaries and the profession (https://www.pocacoop.com/).

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/13/business/student-loans-weighing-down-a-generation-with-heavy-debt.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, Acupuncture and Job Prospects

I’m glad you’re a successful student and that you feel PCOM’s Career Services/Cynthia Neipris is doing right by you. In all sincerity, I hope that my grim opinion on the income potential for PCOM acupuncture students is wrong and that every single PCOM acupuncture graduate earns a living wage.

Acupuncture is a fascinating field of study and the decision to walk away from the degree and my spent tuition money wasn’t easy. I took a hard look around and assessed the ROI of a potential L.Ac. I spent my clinic shifts talking to the advanced students and didn’t hear of any success stories. I looked at the people who obtained the degree and where they were in life. It wasn’t a very compelling outlook.

Every single one of these people were passionate about acupuncture and did well in school. I tried to find success stories when I searched using the terms ‘acupuncture, salary, pay, income’ and I found a whole community of acupuncturists who agree that making a living is ridiculously hard. Do the search yourself (https://www.pocacoop.com/ is a good place to start, as is http://www.theturningpointacupuncture.com/SoYouWantToBeAPunk.html) – I have absolutely NOTHING to gain from this blog.

As to your suggestions on how I can help Career Services, what would Cynthia do with any extra money she receives when she thinks she’s doing a great job thus far?  I spent 2 years at PCOM and recall that the only e-mails she sent out were for overpriced CEU credits, calls for UNPAID volunteer work, UNPAID internships, UNPAID externships (look up the difference between internships and externships), and ‘exciting opportunities’ to work as an UNPAID assistant at an acupuncturist’s office.

I have the following suggestions for improving career services:

1. Publicly post the number of PCOM graduates (broken down by campus) working full time as acupuncturists. Include the mean, median and mode salary and all info relevant for statistical integrity (total # of graduates, total respondents, definition of acupuncture field, etc).

2. Allow students and prospective students to see the alumni job boards – they should know what they’re getting themselves into.

3. Like the students who are on the hook for student loans, Cynthia should have some skin in the game. A significant portion of her income should be based on the percentage of graduates earning $55K or higher per year (this bar is set LOW for NYC — and no cheating, only income from acupuncture work counts).

4. Have the SBA or a management consulting firm come in and review the career services program. I graduated from a good school and I know that job boards should consist of real employment positions – not unpaid ‘opportunities’.

5. Students pay a LOT in tuition money and they deserve an innovative career services department. 

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine NY Issues

Cynthia Neipris, the director of Career Services at Pacific College of Oriental Medicine’s (PCOM) NY campus recently responded to my posting on the livelihood of acupuncturists. I considered taking the conversation offline and addressing the hurt she felt over the posting and make it clear that I am not into causing pain or distress. I re-read my posting to see if I was unfair, cruel or hateful and then I read her post again to try and see things from Cynthia’s point of view. Here are my thoughts on this:

1. My existence would be truly blissful if everything I read about myself were positive. However, this isn’t a realistic scenario. I need my friends and family to be there and tell me all the negatives so I could be an even BETTER person. I need my bosses and co-workers to tell me what they see so I could do an…

View original post 393 more words

Response to PCOM’s Career Services Department

Cynthia Neipris, the director of Career Services at Pacific College of Oriental Medicine’s (PCOM) NY campus recently responded to my posting on the livelihood of acupuncturists. I considered taking the conversation offline and addressing the hurt she felt over the posting and make it clear that I am not into causing pain or distress. I re-read my posting to see if I was unfair, cruel or hateful and then I read her post again to try and see things from Cynthia’s point of view. Here are my thoughts on this:

1. My existence would be truly blissful if everything I read about myself were positive. However, this isn’t a realistic scenario. I need my friends and family to be there and tell me all the negatives so I could be an even BETTER person. I need my bosses and co-workers to tell me what they see so I could do an even BETTER job. Cynthia, you should find INSPIRATION (not censure) from my posting and CHALLENGE yourself to THINK “what MORE should I be doing to address the issues this person is writing about?” 
2. Cynthia, I’ve seen you in school in the late evenings and also on some weekends. You walk around with a tight expression on your face and, while I recall exchanging niceties with you, you never asked me about my career ambitions, my thoughts on post PCOM plans, invited/informed me of upcoming events nor invited me to sit with you. You’re the face of the career services department and should be more of an ambassador/representative. Why don’t you talk more to the students you meet? You should invite people/inspire them to come see you!
3. On that note, Cynthia, over the past decade that you’ve spent at PCOM, would you say that, between the PCOM alums and the current student body for all of the programs (massage, acupuncture, herbs), you are now (theoretically) working for 10 times the number of people you had originally? Has your department’s budget (or your salary) increased by a factor of 10? You are the only name that I associate with Career Services and that’s a shame. I think that Career Services should at least have 3-4 people staffing it. How realistic is it for *ONE* person adequately support the Career Services responsibilities for a school the size of PCOM? If you really think you’re doing a FABULOUS job right now, how much MORE do you think you could accomplish if your department staff and budget were increased? I think you should consider this – and if it’s out of your hands, let the student council know that you’d like them to spend some of their budget helping you out.
4. I’d like to make it clear that other than the small pleasantries at the elevator banks, I don’t know you. My blog is not a personal attack on you. It’s a space I created to share my opinions on how PCOM can be improved and my DIRE WARNING to potential students — DON’T GO TO PACIFIC COLLEGE OF ORIENTAL MEDICINE UNLESS YOU HAVE MONEY TO BURN.
5. Lastly, on the job front, it may help to allow current students to see the job postings alums have access to online so they can see what they’re getting themselves into.

So how much do acupuncturists earn?

Full disclaimer:  I am not an acupuncturist.  Rather, I am a drop out of Pacific College of Oriental Medicine’s NY campus acupuncture program.  I can only comment on what I’ve observed in the 2 years that I’ve studied.

So, you’re thinking about signing up for the Acupuncture program at Pacific College.  How much will you make?  You’ve sat through the orientations and when the question is brought up, vague reassurances are issued — mainly that acupuncture is a growing field and that the salaries are hard to track because there aren’t enough numbers. I’ve found the following blogs on the dollars and ‘sense’ of acupuncture to be very helpful — it’s written by a licensed acupuncturist, Shauna McCuaig:

https://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/guest-blog-dollars-and-sense-information-prospective-acupuncture-and-oriental-medicine-students

http://www.communityacupuncturenetwork.org/blog/dont-go-acupuncture-school

I’m a cynical New Yorker and Shauna McCuaig’s blog sounds pretty realistic to me.  What’s even more realistic is the lack of paid opportunities available through the Career Services department of PCOM NY (Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, NY campus).

The career services department is run by Cynthia Neipris.  I’ve heard conflicting opinions on her.  Some people suspect Cynthia sits on her duff all day and has little interest in posting more jobs or helping students find positions.  Others had positive things to say, claiming that she’s a very nice woman who works very hard and is helpful.

I say…SHOW ME THE MONEY (I’ve always wanted to say that).  Check out the job postings available at PCOM, ask the students to forward you e-mails Cynthia has sent out about open positions, internships, and opportunities.  Look at the salaries being offered (low to non-existent when mentioned) from the positions that are available through PCOM’s career services.  Either Cynthia really isn’t doing her job (because honestly, there are VERY few acupuncture, massage and herbalist positions posted) or Cynthia is out there hustling for all she’s worth every single day and coming away empty handed because there’s not much available.  Which is it?  Either answer is pretty damning for prospective students who are spending hard earned money for a degree with questionable job security.

One rebuttal people may make to this posting is that acupuncture is an entrepreneurial endeavor and that most graduates/students go into private practice.  To that I say:  this is NYC, where the cost of living is amongst the highest in the nation.  To make it here with the minimum (an unlimited metrocard, cell phone, food, utilities and a rented room), you need to earn at least $35K/year.  Do you have the confidence that you’ll have enough clients, charging $60-$80/session (that’s about 600 sessions/year) to make it in the first few years?

• Cheap room share:  $800/month in the boros (there are cheaper rooms ranging from $500-$800 — I am putting up the higher figure b/c this would pretty much guarantee a legal bedroom w/a window and some degree of privacy).
• Cell phone bill:  $50/month (average)
• Metrocard:  $104
• Utilities:  $50 for electric, $20 for gas, and $40 for internet = $90
• Food:  Let’s say you eat cheap and get by on $10/day (this means $.99 menu or strictly cooking and packing lunch daily) = $300
• Sundries:  Essentials for hygiene (soap, toothpaste, shampoo, detergent), laundry, etc = $50/month
• Acupuncture malpractice insurance:  $50/month (averages $150/quarter but could be higher)
• Total= roughly $1450/month just to get by (you must see at least one client/day on a 5 day work week)

Do you want to have some extras in your life?

• Pay off student loans?  Estimate a monthly payment of $200 to service it w/the hopes of paying something towards the principle.
• A social life?  Let’s say you spend $20 each weekend/month seeing friends — ~$80/month.
• Desire to go on vacation once a year?  $800 (that’s a round trip plane ticket, if you’re lucky, plus a little extra for food and transportation) = $70/month in savings.
• Is health insurance (roughly $400-$600/month) important to you?  Let’s go with the low end (or even HealthyNY, where the cheapest option is about $250/month) which is about $400
• Total= roughly $750

You will need to earn $2200/month if you want to live a life with some enjoyment/security.  How did I estimate the $35K annual salary when 12 months x 2200=$26400?  Well, $35K after taxes is about $29,000.  Everyone needs a little extra cushion so I put in $2,600 per year towards a cheap office share (where your practice will be run), needles (cheap at about $5/box but adds up), sheets (again, laundry costs money), and office supplies.  Of course, if you can live off family, you have no worries and no major pressures.

Katie Tintz’s response when I followed up on Jason Morris’s suggestion

So, I followed up on Jason Morris and Julie Cho’s suggestion that I contact Katie Tintz if I were curious about the student council budget.  They assured me that it was an open book and would be happy to shed light on matters.  Ready for the response?

Katie Tintz:

show details Jun 19

I’m sorry but excuse me? What could you possibly want with our budget? I don’t even have access to it unless I’m on campus and go to see the people in charge. Our budget should be of no concern to anyone. We share with everyone what we spend the student council money on and you can see it – the break room renovation, luncheons, comps review sessions, the benefit show, karaoke nights and bringing in people to do lectures, etc. And from what I know you are no longer a student, so Im not sure of your interest. If this is a major concern for you I welcome questions and I urge you to contact Gina if you think there are shady business practices going on

Katie Tintz

I also do not appreciate the things that were written on Facebook yesterday degrading the work and intention behind the show in November. I find it abhorrable that you would question our motives, especially in a place as public as Facebook.
– Show quoted text –

See below for 3 examples of major schools who have NO PROBLEMS publishing their budgets:

Click to access USG-budget-2011-20122.pdf

Click to access 2010-2011%20budget.pdf

http://facu.columbia.edu/

Jason Morris’s correspondence re: my FB postings

In response to my Facebook postings, I received a rather negative message from Jason Morris.  It really shocked disappointed me to see an aspiring healer write such a negative and judgmental e-mail response my Facebook suggestions (which were neither personal nor mean-spirited):

Jason Morris: 

Soo, please read this before you spread any more negativity. Honestly, my heart is breaking reading what people are sending me that you’ve said. You’re attacking my personal efforts and I don’t understand why.

It is senseless, mean, and really not something i would expect from a grad student to be so aggressively writing about issues you’ve never brought to any forum, luncheon, info session, or council member. Beyond this, it’s an abuse of the link I shared. That link was to let people know that I personally worked insanely hard to provide Broadway-caliber performers for people to enjoy, while raising money for Cancer Research… not for you to use for your pcom-bashing purposes. Council will definitely be helping, but what you’re writing is attacking my personal efforts and mine alone.

The reason Julie’s taking your posts so hard is because you are very clearly attacking someone’s hard work, without actually talking with them or anyone related to get clear facts. Ranting about these points without actual understanding is what’s making you look ignorant. And you just posted that you would not even talk with Council, which is just coming off bitchy and closed-minded.

Here is the info you’ve been referencing.

1. The performers were not charged at the last event. that was a mistake at the door; had anyone notified me of what happened with the latin dancers, they would have been immediately refunded. they arrived a lot later than the other performers, so the door person – not knowing who they were – may have thought they were trying to get in for free. mistakes happen. you should not hold such a grudge for something that just came to light. we were extremely short staffed, so katie and i could not be at the door the entire time to supervise…

2. If you want bookkeeping, you should ask. We – as the Student Council – have no reason to publicly post our finances, as most of it is simply funding luncheons, flyers, info sessions, workshops, intern bags, etc; as a student organization there is no need to post our expenses. You are more than welcome to see everything we do. You have never asked to see these things; therefore you didn’t. Using my link to badmouth a school you have issues with is not the proper use of an event’s info that i have worked so hard to put together.

3. The ticket price in november was based on fund-RAISING. it was not based on anything else. we took polls of over thirty students who all said $25 was fair. beyond that, at the show patrons gave $30 and $40, telling us to keep the change. but outside of that, the event was open to the public, for those afore-mentioned fundraising purposes… it was not necessarily geared towards just pcom students being in attendance. and if students are so strapped for cash, why are half of them posting about going to phish shows, bayside concerts, seeing david foster, and other broadway shows. all of these events are more than $40, and we only charged $25.

4. As for expenses, the theatre rental was $600, paid for entirely out of the SC budget, not out of the funds raised. All of the funds taken that night went to the Sickle Cell Disease Association of America. Had you read the fliers, listened when the show was discussed, or paid attention, you would have realized that the event was a fundraiser for them. not avery man.. not cairey tai… for the sickle cell disease association of america. Cairey was one of my closest friends, and I held her hand when they took her off life-support, but I cannot raise money for her family. That would be inappropriate. Cairey and Avery were memorialized because we felt it was the right thing to do – the night was held in memoriam. But, the money did not go to the families; it went straight to sickle cell research. In addition, there was no “spring” show, just the one last november.

5. Even I did not like the person at the door just taking cash from people with no kind of accounting table. Okay? But that’s all we could do. My mom’s an accountant, so I like clean books, but there was no one versed enough to do this at the last show. We took the cash drawer from the night, put everything in an envelope, and handed it to Amanda to deposit. I don’t like shitty bookkeeping, so this time the ticketing is being done online – through TicketLeap.com; if you would like to see attendance after the night has passed, you are more than welcome!

6. As nice as I can say this, please take down my link. Spread love, not hatred. I am not PCOM. I have never done anything mean or malicious to you. All of your words are a complete personal attack on me, as I’m the one in charge of this… and pretty much doing it by myself. I lost a grandmother, a grandfather, and my mother to cancer… I’m doing this, because I want to raise money for this cause. I don’t deserve this abuse. I really don’t. Please take down that post.

The background to these posts

About a month ago, the following Facebook dialogue occurred:

Me:           My 2 cents on raising money for a good cause:

1.  Don’t charge performers an admission fee to perform/get in the door.  It’s not classy (just my opinion).  This is my recollection of what happened during the last PCOM fundraising event.
2. Transparent bookkeeping:  Publicly post the # of attendees, # of tickets sold and the names and responsibilities of the people in charge of accounting and auditing.

PCOM NY:

this is honestly outrageous, soo.  you have no idea how hard jason has been working to secure broadway-caliber talent to provide an amazing evening for everyone…just for you to trash it on your profile.  it is extremely compelling that you won’t talk with council, that you prefer to angrily rant about practices you know nothing about.  had any of your questions been brought to an info session, a forum, or just even mentioned to a member of council or admin, you would have had immediate answers and documentation.  this is maliciious and honestly hard to believe of a grad student studying healing medicine.  please delete this post.

Me:  

I don’t understand why you’re taking my postings so personally — I am posting my thoughts on best practices for fundraising.  If  you have info. on the budget or contradicting facts, please publicly post.

 As for my sources, here’s the identity:  my own two eyes.  I have this memory of standing in line, waiting to get into the student talent show.  A few dancers entered and the two people at the door said that they had to pay $15 — even if they were performers.  One of the dancers I recall being charged was the salsa dancer.  There were also the Korean drummers.

Julie Cho (an acupuncture student and the person whom I initially had this dialogue with):

:

Know your facts before postig these.  Email ktintz@gmail.com.  I still love you.

Me:

Well, I’m not going to e-mail student council nor join but I will share my thoughts when the subject is brought up.  I question how much of the proceeds is ultimately going to the American Cancer Society if the venue rental is high enough to justify $25/ticket from struggling students though!

Also, $25 is really steep for struggling PCOM students.  Possibly set student ticket sales as ‘voluntary donation suggested’.  Again, just my humble 2 cents.

Julie!!!  Another brilliant idea from yours truly:  there should be transparency for the accounting of the fundraising!  The info should be posted on the PCOM Facebook page for all to see!

You can see that none of these postings can be deemed ‘vicious’ or mean-spirited.  The points I made were to improve the accessibility of a talent show to the entire student body and to encourage fiscal transparency.  In response, my character and integrity were challenged — PCOM NY and a PCOM student denied that performers were charged admission and accused me of trashing them.